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catturolalunacunafuna
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Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 250
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 Posted: 03/19/07 |
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One of the most interesting Islamic belief is that "Quran is unchanged" and a direct word from Allah.
Here, we need to discuss this belief and compare it with what the history says.
A.
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Satan
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Joined: 29 Jan 2007
Posts: 205
Location: A Hye Place
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| Posted: 03/20/07 |
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I have no knowledge but I'll be interested in the discussion.
Was the original written in Arabic?
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armoarthur
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Joined: 03 Sep 2005
Posts: 273
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| Posted: 03/20/07 |
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Yes, it was, and so the arabic is the true version.
Here's a funny story because of this strict mentality.
An iraqi-armenian friend of mine went to turkey and went into a mosque. He heard their imam reading from the quran, and he couldn't believe how bad they were reading it.
It was so bad that he wanted to take the quran from the imams hands and read it to them, cause they neither understood what was being read nor could read it properly.
If you're surprised about this, then maybe you would also be surprised to know that the armenian translation of the bible is also known to be the most accurate by international groups.
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Satan
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Joined: 29 Jan 2007
Posts: 205
Location: A Hye Place
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| Posted: 03/20/07 |
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| Quote: |
| the armenian translation of the bible is also known to be the most accurate by international groups. |
Source?
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Lillith
Gold Member
Joined: 01 Jan 2005
Posts: 1879
Location: Behind the camera, Ridgewood, New Jersey
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| Posted: 03/20/07 |
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I'm hoping so. I have an english translation because I can't read Arabic, but it could have been mistranslated a little bit, things happen over the couse of time
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Romeo
New Member
Joined: 15 Jan 2007
Posts: 8
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| Posted: 03/20/07 |
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| catturolalunacunafuna wrote: |
One of the most interesting Islamic belief is that "Quran is unchanged" and a direct word from Allah.
Here, we need to discuss this belief and compare it with what the history says.
A. |
Yes.
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armoarthur
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Joined: 03 Sep 2005
Posts: 273
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Satan
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Joined: 29 Jan 2007
Posts: 205
Location: A Hye Place
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| Posted: 03/20/07 |
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Thanks for the links, I'll check those out. Do you perhaps have a link to a non-Armenian source? Not that I doubt the Armenian ones but an unbiased opinion is always beneficial.
The first question I have is wouldn't the oldest and least translated Bibles be the most true to the "original"? (I use quotes for original because the Bible was not written at the same time, by the same people, as one work but instead several works put together).
That should mean Hebrew for the Old Testament and Greek for the New, correct? There are Latin versions that predate Armenia's acceptance of Christianity by 150+ years as well.
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catturolalunacunafuna
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Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 250
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| Posted: 03/20/07 |
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Wow, we have a wonderful discussion.
I wonder where I should start, but may be I will start with the assertions in Quran. If my memory doesn't fail me, there are some assertions made by Quran:
1) The Torah and Injeel were books from God given to both Moses and Jesus.
2) The people had changed them.
3) God gave the final words in Quran and promised to protect it to be intact.
There are some interesting things in those assertions. Implicitly, it goes without saying that:
1) The author knew that Torah and Injeel did exist before Quran.
2) Both of the "books" came from God yet they were falsified - This means that God's WORDS can be falsified by men (if the assertion is correct).
3) Quran is intact and unchanged since the beginning.
A.
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catturolalunacunafuna
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Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 250
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| Posted: 03/20/07 |
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Interesting enough, from hadiths and contemporary historical sources, we found that:
1) There was some debate on the chapters in the Quran. Even Aisyah claimed that some parts are missing (...I will try to refind the source).
2) There are a lot of versions in the society at the time until Uthman standarized the Quran.
Does that mean Quran today was really original and unchanged? The unchanged matter has been challenged by the assertions above.
Now how about originality?
There are some interesting similarity between some assertions and parts in Quran with parts in Talmud, Heretic Bible and Folklore popular in the area.
Well, I think we have two issues to discuss:
1) "unchanged"
2) "original".
Your opinions and thoughts are welcomed.
A.
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Satan
Member
Joined: 29 Jan 2007
Posts: 205
Location: A Hye Place
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| Posted: 03/21/07 |
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armoarthur, I wish to thank you again for those sources. They did not contain much about the accuracy of the Bible (I'll get back to that in a moment) but they do contain a ton of information about things Armenians.
All I could find regarding the Bible were these statements:
| Quote: |
The Armenian translation is the fifth known translation of the Bible. Earlier, the Bible was only translated into Syriac, Latin, Coptic and Abyssinian languages. Some specialists estimate this translation, performed by St. Mesrob and his disciples, as the best Bible translation ever. The French linguists of the 19th century termed it as the "Queen of translations".
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| Quote: |
| In 406 AD the discovery of the 35 letters (later two more were added) of the Armenian alphabet by the learned cleric Mesrob Mashdots initiated an relentless revival of culture and education for centuries to come and laid the foundations of the Armenian cultural heritage and national identity. The Bible was translated into Armenian (described by future scholars as the Queen of Translations), religious services began to be conducted in Armenian and the monasteries became centers of education, where masterpieces of Greek philosophy (Aristotle, Pluto and others), Historians (Herotodus and others), writers (Homer and others) were translated into Armenian. The art of illuminated manuscripts and original architecture flourished, ushering the Golden Age of the 5th century. |
| Quote: |
In 405 Mesrop Mashtots returned to Armenia, bringing with him the 36 new letters of the Armenian alphabet. The same year the Bible was translated anew and re-written in the new alphabet. The Armenian translation of the Bible, which contains more words than the Hebrew and Greek originals, was so perfect that it soon came to be known as the 'Queen of Translations'. The new alphabet stimulated an unprecedented boom in literature, and the V century was later called the 'Golden Age of Armenian Literature'. |
If I missed something please let me know where I can find it. Interesting information but not very fleshed out.
Those sources also seemed to conflict on whether Mesrop Mashtots discovered (?) or created the Armenian alphabet. The first two or three links you provided all state the discovered or rediscovered the language, a later link (and the most detailed) explains how Mesrob created the language. The links don't mention it but I was also under the impression that Mesrob created at least one other language, Georgian.
I also found fascinating the information about the Persian pagan gods the Armenians used to worhsip. Especially amazing were the many Armenian names that came from those gods!
Aramazd (Ara, Aram), Anahid, Vahakn (Vahag) and Mihr are all the names of pagan Persian gods.
| Quote: |
| The Pagan period During the 5th century BC Armenians adopted the Iranian form of these divinities and domesticated them. The principal gods Armenians worshiped were.- Aramazd, the father of the gods, the creator of the sky and the earth. Anahid, daughter of Aramazd, goddess of fertility and maternity, mother of all prudence and virtues. She was the favorite goddess of the Armenians. Her statue in Yeriza was golden. Vahakn, the god of fire, power and bravery. These three divinities constituted the "trinity". Mihr (of iranian origin), the son of Aramazd, god of light and sun. Dir, the god of rain. He was also the scribe of Aramazd and the messenger of the gods. He was mosthe messenger of the gods. He was most likely the god of literature, science and the recorder of man's deeds of good and evil. One of his duties was to record the dead and take them near Aramazd. Astghik, the goddess of water, beauty, love and fertility. She was the mistress of Vahakn. Armenians used to celebrate, in order to honor Astghik, they offered her roses (vart in Armenian - therefore the celebration was called "Vartavar"), they let doves fly and sprinkled water on each other. Armenians still celebrate "Vartavar", having adopted it to a christian custom. Nanne, daughter of Aramazd and the goddess of the sky, she Aramazd and the goddess of the sky, she represented the mind and the bravery. Parshamin (of syrian origin), the god of the sky and Vanadour, the god of germination and fruit bearing. During this period, Armenians built temples the "mehian"s. In these temples there were statues of the god or goddess for whom the temple was built, and in front of the statues there was the altar, called Pakin, where offerings were made to the god or goddess. There was also a special place called kantsaran (something more or less like a safe), where the gifts from the people were kept. The priests were called kourm. In Armenia there were a lot of temples. However, only seven of them were the most famous. Armenians gathered there every year to worship. Those are The Temple of Aramazd, in Ani and Pakavan, the Temple of Anahid, in Yeriza and Ardashad, the Temple of Mihr, in Pakaraidz, the Temple of Dir, in Yerazamuin, the Temple of Astghik, in Ashdishad, where there were also the Temples of Vahakn and Anahid, the Temple of Nane, in Til and the statue of Parshamin in Tortan. All these temples were ruined during the 4th century by St. Gregory the Illuminator. |
It's a shame the temples were destroyed by the Christians, that would have been very interesting to see.
catturolalunacunafuna, sorry we went so off topic. I am interested in the Quran but know very little so I don't have much to add. I will be observing the discussion though!
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catturolalunacunafuna
Member
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 250
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| Posted: 03/21/07 |
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Well, worry not. it's not a very formal discussion anyhow. And may be we can learn from the moslems as well. I can't say my knowledge is perfect - far from that and I am learning as well.
A.
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armoarthur
Member
Joined: 03 Sep 2005
Posts: 273
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| Posted: 03/21/07 |
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There's also one thing to note. The armenian bible has not change since its inception. The churches today still read the bible in "krapar", which is the language that Mesrob Mashtoz wrote it in. In other words it is not the same as either the spoken eastern or western armenian.
You can hear it during sunday mass.
To try to answer your questions: The reason why the links have written "discovered" or "created" is because it is said that an angel appeared to Mesrob Mashtoz in a dream during his journey to create an armenian alphabet, and gave him it to him. The important part here to note, since this obviously it has to do with faith and not historical evidence, is that it shows how much christianity is tied into the armenian culture.
So who really created the alphabet? You could say God did, and Mesrob discovered it. Really not important how you phrase it.
Here's some more links that I found about the accuracy of the armenian bible.
http://www.watchmanmag.com/0201/020111.htm
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15367a.htm
http://www.stempublishing.com/dictionary/797_818.html
and amusingly this islamic website has some information, although I have not had a chance to read it all, but it does look thorough. It even has some references at the bottom of the page:
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/Canon/armenianlist.html
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/Canon/armenian.html
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HyastaniRejectt
New Member
Joined: 15 Feb 2007
Posts: 99
Location: America
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| Posted: 03/22/07 |
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| Of course the Quran has been changed! EVERY religious book has been changed by rival religions or groups. There are fake Qurans, Bibles, Torahs, Vedas, and the other one i cant remember. That is why we memorized by heart. People memorized the enitire book, taught it to their children, and by doing so they preserved the True Quran, while its physical form may have been changed. The qurans of Saudi are compiled by the memorazation, scrolls, and hadiths, but there are fake qurans out their, especially American made. Ive found 4 american sies delibertly giving worng info on Islam, and manyt books and websites are wrong too. This has happened to every religion by its rivals, so theyd gain support.
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catturolalunacunafuna
Member
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 250
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| Posted: 03/23/07 |
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| Quote: |
| Of course the Quran has been changed! EVERY religious book has been changed by rival religions or groups. There are fake Qurans, Bibles, Torahs, Vedas, and the other one i cant remember. That is why we memorized by heart. People memorized the enitire book, taught it to their children, and by doing so they preserved the True Quran, while its physical form may have been changed. The qurans of Saudi are compiled by the memorazation, scrolls, and hadiths, but there are fake qurans out their, especially American made. Ive found 4 american sies delibertly giving worng info on Islam, and manyt books and websites are wrong too. This has happened to every religion by its rivals, so theyd gain support. |
The different versions of Quran had been recorded to exist since the era of Aisyah and The Kulafaur Rasyidin. In Uthman Era, it was standarized - but how can you be so sure that the message of the standarized Quran is the same with the one uttered by your prophet? There were various versions. And this happened not in the "kuffr" side of the fence.
A.
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catturolalunacunafuna
Member
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 250
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| Posted: 04/20/07 |
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hmm...Ok, shall we start again this?  sorry, I have been very busy lately that I only respond to answers from others.
Cheers,
A.
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Kyle
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| Posted: 10/20/07 |
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| i'm cristian but i believe that quran is unchanged.Because bible includes a lot of contradiction.But Quran doesn't.I can read arabic.Islam is nice religion
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V8 temporal agnostic
Guest
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| Posted: 10/21/07 |
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| catturolalunacunafuna wrote: |
One of the most interesting Islamic belief is that "Quran is unchanged" and a direct word from Allah.
Here, we need to discuss this belief and compare it with what the history says.
A. |
I've read somewhere (I wish I had the link handy but) that the Quran was for several generations an oral tradition and was not until much later, perhaps even centuries later, that an effort was made to write and compile all of the "teachings" into one book. By that time, the oral tradition had been modified & skewed by human nature, and the scribes who penned it all down introduced even more of their own ideas or twists.
Of course, the zealouts deny that any afterthoughts were inserted but scholars hold that it has been altered with time.
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Guest
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| Posted: 12/01/07 |
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| armoarthur wrote: |
Yes, it was, and so the arabic is the true version.
If you're surprised about this, then maybe you would also be surprised to know that the armenian translation of the bible is also known to be the most accurate by international groups. |
Hahaha, the bible itself is a mere collection of works in various languages. The most accurate are the Aramaic ones. Jesus spoke Aramaic, thus it would make sense.
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Guest
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| Posted: 12/01/07 |
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| Satan wrote: |
Thanks for the links, I'll check those out. Do you perhaps have a link to a non-Armenian source? Not that I doubt the Armenian ones but an unbiased opinion is always beneficial.
The first question I have is wouldn't the oldest and least translated Bibles be the most true to the "original"? (I use quotes for original because the Bible was not written at the same time, by the same people, as one work but instead several works put together).
That should mean Hebrew for the Old Testament and Greek for the New, correct? There are Latin versions that predate Armenia's acceptance of Christianity by 150+ years as well. |
Thats right, your can't really say the Armenians have the most exact version. There is no exact version, Jesus did not write the Bible. He influence scholars who did. Now how can you compare it to the Quran, wich was written by One? Hmmm tens of competing scholars or One prophet?
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