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| Posted Tue Sep 16, 2008
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es axchika mihat eshi klir hyei patmutyuna vertsrel mi hye axchika nkaptmampt oo uzuma mer opshak hye azgy vrov xosaksutyun batsy. Asa toh ay idzziot, vor mer azgy dxerke or oo gisher ashxatumein vor entanik pahein dzunin, tsrtin, sovetum, ova esor hishum mer kashadz tanjanknere, che ha, proste himi len oo bol ergrum boxoki girk gren te ov um xi chi toxum kunvi, es dzer putanka lava kunum!
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AraxJan
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| Posted Thu Sep 25, 2008
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I'll start off by stating that this was very well written, and that's about it.
1) Why is this directed at Armenians? Every wealthy culture has this, it's just labeled differently. For Americans it's the "trophy wife".
2) This beauty queen decided to give up her own aspirations in hopes of being nurtured by Mr. Porcelain Head. This is a choice. While unjustified, he's not completely wrong in labeling her as ignorant. After all, she made the choice to get married in lieu of getting educated. Women like this make a choice, and they should not be receiving pity. Nor should Armenian men be scolded as the only ones at fault. We as women, make a choice. They as men, make a choice.
3) He's not completely mistaken in calling her ignorant. Don't get me wrong. An education and prosperous career are not the only forms of success. Full time mothers do what no CEO on the planet could. But at the same time, there's a huge difference between: a) not wanting an education but wanting a family instead, and b) sacrificing/nelecting your education because a more convenient opportunity knocked on your door and pointed a his Bentley parked outside. Variations of countless cliches are running through my head: It takes two to tango; which came first, the superficial gold digger or the rich superficial asshole?
Getting into a rich marriage without a solid foundation is just like any other "GET RICH QUICK" scheme we see advertised all the time. You're a fudge idiot for buying into it, and a deuche bag for manipulating these poor fudge idiots.
4) Don't complain about sites like this, and about postings like this. I came across this posting by chance (it's a funny story actually, my kid sister vowed that the "biggest whore/tits in glendale" were now discovered. I can rest much better now). But before concluding that Armenian men are just dirty shovenists, take a second to sit back and think about who's on here. Young armenian stallions and princesses between the ages of 13-20. At the risk of sounding pretentious, I'll argue that this isn't the most our culture as to offer.
5) A 13 year old "armo" boy doesn't know any better. He just discovered his masculinity through the power of his forearms, and the grasp of his hands. How fallacious would it be to take that experience and generalize it towards an entire population?
6) Ever heard a genuine toast at any given Armenian gathering? It is near impossible for any of them to omit the "we hope you find a great mate, and start a great family". While one generation is in between culture shock and enlightenment, we musn't forget that another generation is deep in culture nostalgia and change phobia. Progress takes a few generations.
7) IT'S A YIN AND YANG LIFE: When men are wealthy and educated, more often than not, this is a result of hard work and dedication-- both of which are charactaristics we are biologically prone to, because they take the best care of the offspring. I doubt one could argue against the devotion of Armenian fathers to their children. I know I couldn't. Thus, for a woman to want this doesn't necessarily classify her as a gold digging whore. In turn, successful and ambitious men are used to getting the best of everything and not settling for anything less. In terms of a wife, this tends to be mainly superficial because... quite frankly, they don't exactly need a bread-winner for their kids.
You may feel the urge to cast this as a contradiction to everything I've said thusfar. This isn't my opinion, however, it's simply a humanistic pattern: Yin and Yang-like, if you will. And this pattern takes place with both sexes, in all cultures. For example, Donald Trumps billionairre ex wife and real estate mogul (who debatably may have started as a gold-digger herself) has a hot piece of [useless] ass... a gorgeous male model... as her arm candy. Has she created a monster? Nope, shes just getting the best of what her hard-earned money can buy her. And, he's not exactly complaining either.
Ambitious and independent women are slowly making our way up... and just like all other minorities fighting for what's right, we've got to remember that you can't ask for equality and concession at the same time. If someone wants something bad enough, obstacles and hurdles are just going to make things challenging, never impossible. If someone doesn't want something bad enough, there's always a way around it. If someone doesn't care enough, they pay the hard way for wanting to do things the easy way.
Look everyone's got obstacles, everyone's got a choice, everyone's got a pity story, but everyone breaks down to just a bunch of someone's. We're a collective nation of individuals, and there's nothing wrong with that... let's worry about the person, and not the people, isn't that why we fled from communism to capitalism?
I started by admiring the articulate ability of our author and presenter, I'll end by quoting a great Armenian scholar, Vartanik: "Vopshum siktir..."
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Sula
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| Posted Thu Sep 25, 2008
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| AraxJan wrote: | I'll start off by stating that this was very well written, and that's about it.
1) Why is this directed at Armenians? Every wealthy culture has this, it's just labeled differently. For Americans it's the "trophy wife".
This post arose out of various ongoing conversations on this forum, of which you have not partaken. Being Armenian, our interests are in our culture, society, and overall national integrity. This piece was written as part satire, part social commentary, by an Armenian, for Armenians. I suggest you familiarize yourself with this forum and its participants.
2) This beauty queen decided to give up her own aspirations in hopes of being nurtured by Mr. Porcelain Head. This is a choice. While unjustified, he's not completely wrong in labeling her as ignorant. After all, she made the choice to get married in lieu of getting educated. Women like this make a choice, and they should not be receiving pity. Nor should Armenian men be scolded as the only ones at fault. We as women, make a choice. They as men, make a choice.
Yes, these are individual choices. However, as was once famously said, "no man is an island". Therefore, no decision or choice is truly an individual choice per se. All "choices" are driven by a need to find balance between personal self-interest and conformist norm-seeking behavior. This piece scrutinizes the cultural norms driving such "choices".
3) He's not completely mistaken in calling her ignorant. Don't get me wrong. An education and prosperous career are not the only forms of success. Full time mothers do what no CEO on the planet could. But at the same time, there's a huge difference between: a) not wanting an education but wanting a family instead, and b) sacrificing/nelecting your education because a more convenient opportunity knocked on your door and pointed a his Bentley parked outside. Variations of countless cliches are running through my head: It takes two to tango; which came first, the superficial gold digger or the rich superficial asshole?
And here you've obviously missed the point. The implication in my series of similar posts (see others) is that the new breed of consumerist Armenianism has created mutant strains in our cultural core in both male and female sociological gene pools which evade standard distillations of the "gold digger" or "rich superficial asshole" cliches. The conceptualization behind these posts is much more complex than your interpretation.
Getting into a rich marriage without a solid foundation is just like any other "GET RICH QUICK" scheme we see advertised all the time. You're a fudge idiot for buying into it, and a deuche bag for manipulating these poor fudge idiots.
Agreed. With the following caveat: among present-day Armenian diaspora, the marital "get rich quick scheme" has become a cultural characteristic driven, fed, and nurtured by a new, unique set of cultural norms, and, therefore, worthy of a separate discussion.
4) Don't complain about sites like this, and about postings like this. I came across this posting by chance (it's a funny story actually, my kid sister vowed that the "biggest whore/tits in glendale" were now discovered. I can rest much better now). But before concluding that Armenian men are just dirty shovenists, take a second to sit back and think about who's on here. Young armenian stallions and princesses between the ages of 13-20. At the risk of sounding pretentious, I'll argue that this isn't the most our culture as to offer.
Naturally, a wide range of sophistication is found on this site. I don't complain about it, I merely comment on it. Further, self-effacing humor of the tongue-in-cheek variety is not entirely uncalled for since I (and now you by virtue of your ties to this site as well as your post) are both a part of the phenomenon. More importantly, I do not, repeat do not, conclude that Armenian men are just dirty shovenists (to use your phrasing). I actually have an extremely high opinion of Armenian men in the classic sense as I have shown/posted about elsewhere on this site. Your ignorance of this is due to your lack of familiarity with the forum. Incidentally, my posts aren't always aimed only at those on this forum. I always take a more global perspective of this forum as a microcosm of Armenian society at large.
5) A 13 year old "armo" boy doesn't know any better. He just discovered his masculinity through the power of his forearms, and the grasp of his hands. How fallacious would it be to take that experience and generalize it towards an entire population?
Once again, you've missed the point. The use of this example was meant to be allegorical.
6) Ever heard a genuine toast at any given Armenian gathering? It is near impossible for any of them to omit the "we hope you find a great mate, and start a great family". While one generation is in between culture shock and enlightenment, we musn't forget that another generation is deep in culture nostalgia and change phobia. Progress takes a few generations.
Here I must refrain from sarcasm, for it will seem insulting. Let's just say the Armenian gatherings you and I attend must be of a very different nature. And yes, progress takes a few generations. Again, I would refer you to more of my posts for relevant commentary.
7) IT'S A YIN AND YANG LIFE: When men are wealthy and educated, more often than not, this is a result of hard work and dedication-- both of which are charactaristics we are biologically prone to, because they take the best care of the offspring. I doubt one could argue against the devotion of Armenian fathers to their children. I know I couldn't.
Oh, if only you knew of the lovely examples of "Armenian fatherhood" I have encountered working with this population over the years. Like the kids say, p-lease. I would argue (and perhaps do my doctorate on) the very low levels of "fatherhood" and "devotion" found in the lower socioeconomic strata of Armenian immigrant populations. Like you've alluded to previously, it's not healthy to generalize.
Thus, for a woman to want this doesn't necessarily classify her as a gold digging whore. In turn, successful and ambitious men are used to getting the best of everything and not settling for anything less. In terms of a wife, this tends to be mainly superficial because... quite frankly, they don't exactly need a bread-winner for their kids.
You do generalize quite a bit. I'm also loving your generous use of cliche terms. You're fairly absolutist in your thinking and, I would presume, behavior. Again, not healthy.
You may feel the urge to cast this as a contradiction to everything I've said thusfar. This isn't my opinion, however, it's simply a humanistic pattern: Yin and Yang-like, if you will. And this pattern takes place with both sexes, in all cultures. For example, Donald Trumps billionairre ex wife and real estate mogul (who debatably may have started as a gold-digger herself) has a hot piece of [useless] ass... a gorgeous male model... as her arm candy. Has she created a monster? Nope, shes just getting the best of what her hard-earned money can buy her. And, he's not exactly complaining either.
Yes, the example you use above was created by a culture--the culture of money. The examples I have used in my writings refer to a different culture-- the culture of a diaspora struggling to acculturate, much less assimilate.
Ambitious and independent women are slowly making our way up... and just like all other minorities fighting for what's right, we've got to remember that you can't ask for equality and concession at the same time. If someone wants something bad enough, obstacles and hurdles are just going to make things challenging, never impossible. If someone doesn't want something bad enough, there's always a way around it. If someone doesn't care enough, they pay the hard way for wanting to do things the easy way.
Again, I disagree with your conceptualization. My point isn't about only feminist aspirations, it isn't only about minority egalitarianism, it isn't only about overcoming cultural obstacles, etc. It's about different combinations of various elements of each.
Look everyone's got obstacles, everyone's got a choice, everyone's got a pity story, but everyone breaks down to just a bunch of someone's. We're a collective nation of individuals, and there's nothing wrong with that... let's worry about the person, and not the people, isn't that why we fled from communism to capitalism?
The above makes me laugh. My family didn't flee communism; my family was communism lol. And, no, it's not about the person. If Armenians are to continuosly morph and evolve to survive as a nation, the discussion must become about the people. And that is the perspective from which I write -- the Armenian cultural collective.
I started by admiring the articulate ability of our author and presenter, I'll end by quoting a great Armenian scholar, Vartanik: "Vopshum siktir..." |
[b]The articulate author and presenter must now refer you to utilize your own base and common example of mutant cultural norms: Vartanik's phrase.....  On second thought, stay, and let's at the very least model a novel concept to the teenage Armenian girls who might happen on this site in the same manner as your kid sister: that of the strong Armenian woman. ---Sula, aka Shamiram
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